Friday, December 07, 2012

Cross Behaviour

When Jesus went to the cross, he was doing what his Father had done before him. He was making himself helpless in the hand of men who had the power to harm him. That is what the father did when he gave dominion and authority over the earth that he created to humans. He made himself vulnerable to humans who had the freedom to rebel against him. He was committing himself to sustaining the creation, even if his creatures shut him out of it. He made them free to be atheists, while living the life that he created. This was cross behaviour. The Father made him powerless before with the people he had created.

If we do not understand this, we will not understand how God is working to achieve his purposes on earth. See God’s Big Strategy.

Once humans had shut him out of the world, he could not return without their permission. He had to wait for a thousand years before he got his first chance with Enoch. The Holy Spirit was speaking to humans throughout that time, be they just ignored him.

Enoch was different. He listened to the Spirit and prophesied, which opened the way for Noah, who brought God back into the frame.


Anonymous said...

I think you are viewing the scriptures through a lens, rather than letting the Bible speak to you. That lens is that God cannot do anything unless man gives Him permission. The Bible does not tell us that man ignored God until Enoch was born. While it does tell us that Jesus was given before the foundation of the world.

This and other things stand in contrast to the presupposition that God cannot do anything unless He has mans' permission. Who did He ask when He destroyed the Tower of Babel? Who did He ask when He chose Moses? Who did He ask when He chose Abraham, and who gave Him permission to send Jesus to atone for our sins?

Ron McK said...

Hey Non Mouse
You obviously have not read the linked article. The answers to most your questions are there.

The rainbow covenant gave God permission to intervene at Babel.

Abraham responded to the Holy Spirit, which allowed him to act.

The children of Israel cried out to God, which allowed him to send Moses.

The prophets had invited God to send Jesus. The prayers of Anna, Simeon and Zechariah and many others gave God specific permission to send Jesus.

If God can take authority over on earth at any time, then he has not really given authority over earth to man as Genesis claims. The problem is that authority and responsibility go together. If man does not have authority on earth then he is not responsible for everything that happens. If God has ultimate authority then he has responsibility for everything too. That makes him responsible for evil. I believe that humans have authority on earth, and therefore they are responsible for evil. That is why we need the cross so badly.

Have a look at

Anonymous said...


First of all my name is Anonymous, not 'Non Mouse'.

Second, your views are based upon a reading of Genesis 1:28 that doesn't represent what Genesis 1:28 actually says.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
(Gen 1:28 KJV)

Mankind was to subdue the earth. Subdue means 1.Overcome or bring under control (a feeling or person); 2. Bring (a country or people) under control by force.

Mankind was to have dominion over fish, birds and all animals.

Mankind did not have dominion over the earth, and definitely not over God Himself.

Reading Genesis 1:28 properly does not take away from man's rights and responsibilities over earth nor from God's sovereignty.

But when it is read incorrectly, then a strange doctrine about how God needs man's permission to act emerges.

Don't forget,
The world and all that is in it belong to the LORD; the earth and all who live on it are his.
(Psa 24:1 GNB)

Ron McK said...

Dear Anonymous
Gen 1:26 is clear that God intended to give humans dominion “over the whole earth”. When God says “Let it be”, it is done. Gen 1:28 is the outworking of the earlier decree.

God never gave humans dominion over him. He freely chose to limit his authority on earth. He was willing to do that because he wanted us to have the privilege of being free.

God remains the owner of the earth. But ownership is not the same as authority. When a landlord rents a house, the tenant has authority in it, provided the tenant complies with the rental contract, but the landlord still owns it. The owner can only take immediate authority over the house, by breaching the contract. (Gen 1:26 was quite a long lease and God will not breach his contract).

Giving humans dominion did not diminish God’s sovereignty. He freely chose to limit his authority in a particular situation. He was able to do that because he is sovereign. He chose to do it because he was confident that the could accomplish all his purposes without having full authority on earth. That is real sovereignty.

This approach only seems strange because we have not thought through the implication of our dominion.

Anonymous said...

It's strange because it makes it sound like the only reason we need to pray is 'to give God authority to act' even though He does not need our permission.

It's strange because it makes it sound like a doctrine that reads things into the scriptures that are not there.

Allow the Bible to speak to you, don't overlay things on top of it.

Ron McK said...

The fact that God gave dominion over the earth to humans is not something I am overlaying. It is right there in the scriptures at the foundation of things(Gen 1:26), so we need to know what it means and not pretend it is not there.

The fact that God have humans domino over the earth is actually the best reason for praying. His people work together with him to accomplish his purposes.

If God has now allowed his authority on earth to be constrained by handing over dominion to humans, praying becomes pointless. God knows what should be done, so he does not need us to tell him what we want done. He would be to free act whenever he wanted, so he would not care if anyone was praying.

Prayer would become a lottery.
A few rare worthy prayers might change God’s mind.
A few prayers would be aligned with what God’s will. It would seem like they have had an effect, but if God was going to do it anyway, this would be an illusion.
Most prayers will be disappointed, because God ignores them.

This is where many Christians live: in disappointment, because their prayers have not been answered. The next step is to give up praying and slip into fatalism. Many Christians are in that space too.

This experience does not align with the scriptures, because they say over and over again that prayer actually achieves something significant and real.

Anonymous said...


I think you are still confusing the issue: Prayer is much more than just requests. It is talking and listening to God. See the Psalms as to how honest David was with God and his feelings.

Ron McK said...

If course. But...

Anonymous said...


The religious mindset has made prayer all about man's needs. It has reduced a friendship with God down to asking God to fulfill a checklist instead of it being a living relationship between a man or woman and their Creator.

Doctrines that insist on prayer being necessary for God to act strengthen the religious mindset.

God's Big Strategy is actually to reveal Christ to the whole universe. It is to make Him pre-eminent in all things and that He becomes all and in all.

For this reason we are to be prayerful for God's needs: That His kingdom come, His will be done; that the church becomes His home, not just a place He visits on a Sunday morning.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous #1 may be I can give a little bit more light to help you. God's creation got off course with Adam. God's need is for the creation to get back on course that is why Jesus came as a man. A man messed it up and it is going to take man co-laboring with God to correct. God can not do it without a submitted heart of a man or woman.

Ezekiel 22:29-30 demonstrates the principle Ron is talking about. So when a submitted man is co-laboring with God, he is not asking for cars and houses. He is aiding in the restoring of the creation that he is a co-heir of. In Ezekiel God needed someone in Israel to get before Him and co-labor with Him to restore the relationship but could not find anyone. The question you must ask is why did He need someone. Just think about it, if God was in total control of this world then He blew it.